tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6351514776753370690.post8246783454362734979..comments2024-03-18T06:22:29.802-07:00Comments on Skyrim and Morality: The Dark Brotherhood, Part 5 (The Silence Has Been Broken) (Katnys)Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13302330633120373724noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6351514776753370690.post-14395802085097002972019-11-22T09:43:46.281-08:002019-11-22T09:43:46.281-08:00thanks for the sharing such an useful information ...thanks for the sharing such an useful information with us and we also invite you to our website <br /><br /><br /><a href="https://freefiretick.blogspot.com/2019/11/free-free-name-change.html?m=1" rel="nofollow">Accept</a>Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18138967469513288862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6351514776753370690.post-66151411106088432722019-11-22T09:41:29.033-08:002019-11-22T09:41:29.033-08:00thanks for the sharing such an useful information ...thanks for the sharing such an useful information with us and we also invite you to our website <br /><br /><br /><a href="https://freefiretick.blogspot.com/2019/11/free-free-name-change.html?m=1" rel="nofollow">Accept</a>Mikehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18138967469513288862noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6351514776753370690.post-35581423041589414532014-09-05T18:01:25.622-07:002014-09-05T18:01:25.622-07:00Thanks again for your compliments, and for your pa...Thanks again for your compliments, and for your patience with the delays in my posts and responses.<br /><br />Allow me to address your three counter-questions in order...<br /><br />On the possibility of a "post-revenge" life: Katnys, at this stage of the story, is not thinking past her immediate goal. There is no "retirement" from her vengeance on her radar. If that seems foolish to you, you're spot-on. Of course it is short-sighted; that is the nature of vengeance. It is precisely this kind of "moral myopia" I was interested in exploring. <br /><br />On the added benefits of vampirism: This is a bit harder to explain without undue ludic interference. Compare what a character living in Tamriel might know about vampires to what the player knows. We, the players, know that there's a difference between the relatively weak vampires in the original game and the more robust Volkihar variety. We also know that the vampirism the affects the PC in the original game is not as advantageous as the version added by the Dawnguard DLC. However, a character in Tamriel would likely experience this distinction in much the same way that we experience any poorly-understood phenomenon in the real world: snippets of conflicting information and the occasional first-hand experience. Vampires live forever! Vampires can become invisible at will! Vampires can make others do their bidding! Vampire can see in the dark! Even if she had not seen these specific phenomena first-hand, she would likely have heard the stories.<br /><br />On paying attention: This is easily your strongest point. I have no answer except denial. Think about the compulsive gamblers, drug addicts, and abused spouses who say "this time, it will be different" or "yeah, but I'm not like those other people." Sure, every other vampire she's encountered ended up dead, but none of them were her. Again, you are definitely right, but someone like Katnys is just not going to be able to hear it.<br /><br />As for the rationale behind the murders of Narfi and Papius, I think you're being a bit unfair; both of their lives were pretty miserable, so killing them felt more palatable than killing Lurbuk. Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13302330633120373724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6351514776753370690.post-56757962068268490142014-09-05T17:20:25.805-07:002014-09-05T17:20:25.805-07:00Wolfsilver -- you've foreshadowed one of the m...Wolfsilver -- you've foreshadowed one of the more interesting turns Katnys's story takes later in the game. I'm hoping to write that part soon.<br /><br />Nicholas -- Katnys's problem with the Lurbuk kill boils down to its frivolity. Ironically, Katnys treats life seriously, and the taking of it even moreso. In her thinking, the Black Sacrament is serious business, so there must be a good reason for each target, even if she herself is not privy to the reason. The idea that someone might perform the ritual in order to kill a bard for being bad at his job is very troubling to her.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13302330633120373724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6351514776753370690.post-25510047079374132262014-08-11T22:40:03.291-07:002014-08-11T22:40:03.291-07:00I think what most gives me pause in this instalmen...I think what most gives me pause in this instalment is her decision not to cure vampirism.<br /><br />If she rationalised that as "it will make me a darker instrument of vengeance", I wouldn't question it. Or even "it was fated, I should accept it as a natural turning point in my life". But instead, she thinks: "What if I need more power, more time to exact my vengeance on the Empire? Wouldn't becoming a vampire actually help? What did I have to lose?"<br /><br />The answer to the first of those questions is: "so there's an end point you're working towards? You plan to retire from the vengeance business one day, and settle down to get on with some other life goal? If not, then how can you possibly 'need' more time? And if so, then don't you think being a vampire might affect that 'other life goal'?"<br /><br />The answer to the second is "How, exactly? What do you think you can do to further your goals as a vampire, that you can't do in your current form?"<br /><br />And the answer to the third is "Have you been paying attention? How many vampires have you met, and what was their average life expectancy after you met them? With the exception of Babette, have you personally ever <i>seen</i> a vampire live more than about 2 minutes? You're closing off entire avenues and possibilities of life to yourself. To put it more practically, what if someone in the Emperor's bodyguard or other entourage has the basic intelligence to use 'Detect Life' or 'Detect Death' on people coming into his presence? - then thanks to your momentary insecurity, you'd be cheated of your vengeance."<br /><br />Previously, you rationalised the first batch of petty murders as, essentially, putting people out of their misery. I think that rationale is so thin that you'd need to be a card-carrying psychopath to buy it, and if she was that, surely she wouldn't have been so torn up about it in the first place? I don't know, I'm no psychologist, but as I say, it doesn't quite ring true to me.<br /><br />Whew, that went on. Anyway: to repeat myself from earlier visits, thank you for the work you put into this blog, and for the thoughtful discussions you enter into with random people like me. I do appreciate the effort.vethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13376500106064052491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6351514776753370690.post-84576431590274743972014-08-10T18:54:51.655-07:002014-08-10T18:54:51.655-07:00Playing Katnys as a moral agent is admittedly much...Playing Katnys as a moral agent is admittedly much harder than playing Lothar, so I'd be interested in hearing more about what "doesn't ring quite true." Lothar thinks in big-picture terms, which is my own tendency as well, so it's easy for me to explain his actions. Katnys employs a moral reasoning that is more alien to me, but one I've nevertheless seen in the real world, so I'm working hard to make it coherent.<br /><br />In your Dark Brotherhood experience, you still employed a "big-picture" moral lens -- utilitarianism, to be exact. Expertly killing one person as a way to prevent the death of hundreds is a classic utilitarian example (see the Trolley Problem). If assassination were presented to Lothar in the terms you describe, he might have considered joining.<br /><br />For Katnys, however, "big-picture" reasoning makes no sense. She killed Grelod because Grelod was awful to orphans like her. She joined the Brotherhood in order to replace her family. She kills for them because that's what her new family has asked her to do. And because she did what was asked of her, she has the chance to kill the man responsible for all of her suffering.<br /><br />It's not a rationale that I inherently "get," but I'm hoping to explain it in a believable way.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13302330633120373724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6351514776753370690.post-54067896126297599102014-08-10T16:11:55.505-07:002014-08-10T16:11:55.505-07:00You're trying really hard to keep Katnyss with...You're trying really hard to keep Katnyss within what you consider a human moral framework. In one sense that's admirable, but in another - I can't help but wonder if you're going too far. I'm far from an expert, but something about her internal rationalisations doesn't ring quite true to me.<br /><br />When I played through the Dark Brotherhood questline, I aimed for the mindset of a professional. Targets were not "people" to be agonised over, they were - well, targets, and my job was simply to dispatch them as cleanly as possible.<br /><br />If ever I got bothered about cold-blooded murder, I'd look at the Stormcloaks to remind myself what happens when people aren't cold-blooded <i>enough</i>. If Ulfric had killed Torygg unknown and stealthily, there'd be no war, and countless innocent people would still be alive. In the end, people who fight with honour and nobility for a cause - do far more damage than those who sneak through the night and put a dagger in some unknown miner's guts.<br /><br />So that character never bothered with the war. Not his business.vethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13376500106064052491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6351514776753370690.post-45765430458281297442014-08-08T16:31:41.673-07:002014-08-08T16:31:41.673-07:00Yeah, it's hard to write a Dark Brotherhood ch...Yeah, it's hard to write a Dark Brotherhood character who is not repulsive in some way, unless you keep their murders offstage. Katnyss is actually not that bad of an attempt. I was surprised when she had some doubts over Lubruk the Orc bard. I can certainly imagine a murderer who would be too entertained by the comism of the situation to worry about ethics. <br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17213751411076474586noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6351514776753370690.post-68628898334465541872014-07-19T10:40:58.113-07:002014-07-19T10:40:58.113-07:00Well, you've certainly done a fantastic idea o...Well, you've certainly done a fantastic idea of creating this character, that's for sure, and I certainly applaud you for it.<br /><br />Though that comment about "her one remaining duty"-I've got to ask: and then what? What happens after she "Avenges her Sister"? Will she commit suicide as there is no longer a purpose for her? Will she think of something on the spot? Will she "walk the earth", desperately searching for a purpose in life?<br /><br />I'm honestly a bit curious to see if she'll ever realize her actions have consequences- her assassination of Maro's son's gonna come to bit her in the ***, after all. I'm even curious to see if she'll be in shock at seeing that Titus Mede II faces his death in one of the most dignified way ever seen in a video game (I think).Wolfsilverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11960837490440947763noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6351514776753370690.post-579526183055929252014-07-19T07:56:12.944-07:002014-07-19T07:56:12.944-07:00While it wasn't my intention to create a socio...While it wasn't my intention to create a sociopath, I do recognize that Katnys is at least "driving through the neighborhood." I said at the outset that I had no interest in writing an evil character per se, but rather a character who would see the "evil" choice as the right one. <br /><br />The "inner circle" comment, especially with regard to the vampire attack, is well taken, and actually points to one of the real-world inspirations for this character. When you adjust for the combat-based, life-or-death nature of the game, you have to admit that you probably know people just like Katnys. These are the people who protect family members from being arrested even when those family members have committed serious crimes. These are the people who steal or embezzle or cheat on their taxes in order to give their own kids the "good life." These are the people who say we should just turn the entire Middle East into a parking lot. I'm sure they all consider themselves to be good, moral people, and they probably don't appear to be sociopaths to the people in their "inner circles," but they are the ones who will look the other way when something bad happens to someone who is "outside." And, if we're being honest with ourselves, sometimes we ourselves are the "sociopaths," despite our better inclinations.<br /><br />Lothar isn't exactly a clean Marine, but his moral profile privileges big ideas over individual considerations. Preserving the Empire is good because it's the best bulwark against the Thalmor, even if the Empire has made some bad decisions lately. Taking over the Thieves Guild, while technically a criminal act, allows him control over an organization that would be very useful in the coming war with the Dominion. He jumps in to defend Whiterun against a vampire attack because "defending innocents against monsters" is an important idea.<br /><br />Katnys, on the other hand, primarily values individual considerations -- avenging her sister, helping her family -- without much regard for larger ideas. What if she had jumped in to fight the vampires on behalf of the people of Whiterun and gotten herself killed? Who would avenge her sister? Those vampires were someone else's problem, and for her to risk her one remaining duty for people she had no connection with would be both foolish and wrong -- from that moral profile, of course.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13302330633120373724noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6351514776753370690.post-49322159697022432282014-07-19T06:11:58.978-07:002014-07-19T06:11:58.978-07:00I'd say "sociopath" is pretty apt. I...I'd say "sociopath" is pretty apt. I mean, I'd hardly expect an assassin of the Dark Brotherhood to be a well-adjusted individual.DannyJhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13273313206696087395noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6351514776753370690.post-61030022381886123932014-07-18T22:20:35.359-07:002014-07-18T22:20:35.359-07:00...(left eye twitches) Okay, first of all, you'......(left eye twitches) Okay, first of all, you've done a fantastic job of narrating from this moral perspective. It's about as far from Lothar as it could be.<br /><br />Now, onto my growing opinion of Katnys: ...Is this girl a sociopath, or something? Because her lack of empathy is regards to anyone not in her inner circle is truly frightening. I mean, she didn't lift a finger to help the citizens against a Vampire attack in Whiterun?? Does..does she even know what it means to have basic standards of human empathy?? I've read fanfics that tend to gloss over the reasons WHY the dark brotherhood isn't a nice organization and tend to treat them as Anti-hero's/anti-villains at worst (My Own Path, by GangyGirl, comes to mind, as does Diana Dragonborn, by Hecate, though my judgement of their fics (Which, if I'm being honest, are probably actually good fics) is clouded by their treatment of some characters that really rubs me the wrong way))), but this?! Those are starting to seem TAME compared to this! And my anger at Katnys is starting to turn to fear about how far off the deep end she might go!<br />I might not get along with those two authors I just mentioned a lot of the time, but I'm seriously tempted to mention this blog to them.Wolfsilverhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11960837490440947763noreply@blogger.com